Gunfighter

robert · Site Admin Joined: 29 Jun 2007 Posts: 50 Location: Houston

Most of you are familiar with the Joe Horn Shotgun shooting of two burglary suspects in Pasadena. The following are the dtails.

This is a POLL QUESTION< Do you agree or disagree with Joe Horns actions that Night?

(CBS) The 911 call came from a Pasadena, Tex., resident, who alerted police to two burglary suspects on a neighbor's property. Before he hung up, two men were dead by his hand.

Joe Horn, 61, told the dispatcher what he intended to do: Walk out his front door with a shotgun.

"I've got a shotgun," Horn said, according to a tape of the 911 call. "Do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that - ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?" the dispatcher responded.

"Hurry up man, catch these guys, will you? 'Cause I'm ain't gonna let 'em go, I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm not gonna let 'em go. I'm not gonna let 'em get away with this ----."

Shortly after, Horn said he sees one suspect was standing in front of his house, looking at it from the street.

"I don’t know if they’re armed or not. I know they got a crowbar 'cause that's what they broke the windows with. ... Man, this is scary, I can't believe this is happening in this neighborhood."

He gets more agitated. The dispatcher asks if he can see the suspects but they had retreated into the target's house, out of view: "I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot."

"Stay inside the house and don’t go out there, OK?" the dispatcher said. "I know you're pssed off, I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting somebody over this, OK?"

"I don’t want to," Horn said, "but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hll is going on, what choice am I gonna have?

"No, I don’t want you to go out there, I just asked if you could see anything out there."

The dispatcher asks if a vehicle could be seen; Horn said no. The dispatcher again says Horn should stay inside the house.

Almost five minutes into the call, police had not arrived.

"I can’t see if [the suspects are] getting away or not," Horn said.

Horn told the dispatcher that he doesn’t know the neighbors well, unlike those living on the other side of his home. "I can assure you if it had been their house, I would have already done something, because I know them very well," he said.
Dispatcher: "I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?"

Horn: "Yes?"

Dispatcher: "I got ultras coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around out there."

Horn: "I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it."

Dispatcher: "I understand."

Horn: "I have a right to protect myself ..."

Dispatcher: "I'm ..."

Horn: "And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon."

Dispatcher: "No, it's not, I'm not saying that, I'm just not wanting you to ..."

Horn: "OK, he's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window. "

Dispatcher: "No, don't, don't go out the door, Mister Horn. Mister Horn..."

Horn: "They just stole something, I'm going out to look for 'em, I'm sorry, I ain't letting them get away with this ----. They stole something, they got a bag of stuff. I'm doing it!"

Dispatcher: "Mister, do not go outside the house."

Horn: "I'm sorry, this ain't right, buddy."

Dispatcher: "You gonna get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don't care what you think."

Horn: "You wanna make a bet?"

Dispatcher: "Stay in the house."

Horn: "There, one of them's getting away!

Dispatcher: "That's alright, property's not something worth killing someone over. OK? Don't go out the house, don't be shooting nobody. I know you're pssed and you're frustrated but don't do it."

Horn: "They got a bag of loot."

Dispatcher: "OK. How big is the bag?" He then talks off, relaying the information.

Dispatcher: "Which way are they going?"

Horn: "I can't ... I'm going outside. I'll find out."

Dispatcher: "I don't want you going outside, Mister..."

Horn: "Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

Dispatcher: "Don't go outside."
On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being ccked and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone.

"Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being ccked and fired again, and then again.

Then Horn is back on the phone:
"Get the law over here quick. I've now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice! ... Get somebody over here quick, man."

robert · Site Admin Joined: 29 Jun 2007 Posts: 50 Location: Houston

Joe Horn clearly had no education on the proper usage of deadly force in regards to how to "Stop" the threat vs. the "Your Dead" comment that was recorded on the 911 call.

I am not going to second guess Joe Horn's perception at the time of the shooting clearly his perception was life or death in the yard that evening.

Joe clearly stopped two professional criminals that night. I wish Joe had taken Hoffners Tactical Pistol I course where proper usage of deadly force is covered in great detail. That would have made the complete event a non issue.
I like the fact that another citizen did not sit back and watch a crime, or homicide occurs and was courageous enough to stop the event. If all citizens were like Joe Horn crime would be nearly nonexistent.

Semper_Fi

Based upon the limited information I have regarding this case, I disagree at this time with Joe Horn's decision to use lethal force but agree that criminals who learn of the details of this shooting will think about the consequences of their actions before breaking and entering.

If I were in the DA's position, I would not prosecute Mr. Horn as premeditation has been ruled out.

A few pertinent questions are:

1) Would the thugs have obeyed Mr. Horn's command to "Stop, drop the bags, keep your hands in plain sight and get on the ground!" while keeping the weapon at low ready, knowing that the PD was enroute?

2) Did the criminals enter Mr. Horn's property with the intent of overpowering and killing him? (Perception of personal harm). What were their body languages and what were they saying to Mr. Horn as they entered Mr. Horn's property?

3) Were they attempting to flee the area once they saw Mr. Horn and did Mr. Horn shoot them as they were running away or just turning away?

4) Did Mr. Horn 'perceive' that he was in personal danger?

Education and training are critical in determining the use of lethal force and the second amendment community will closely watch the evolution of this case.