Gunfighter

Liam · Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 86

Where does the tac reload fit in for the civilian CHL holder working alone? (by tac reload I mean retain the ejected magazine for its remining ammo before completing the reload to a fresh, --fully loaded--mag). Why not just speed reload?

Hoff · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 526 Location: Warrior Nirvana

Although he speed reload is a mandatory technique in order to win a competition, it is not as necessary in the fight, here’s why; in a blazing gun battle when your gun runs dry you combat load. With practice about 3 seconds between shots. You can speed reload slightly faster but you’re not going to speed reload when you need to be pressing trigger pumping lead into the bad guy. That means you would actually perform your speed reload during a lull in the gun fight hence, it is actually a tactical reload because using a lull to reload your pistol before it is empty, and before moving on to the unknown, is simply a tactical load. The only difference is Tactical load technique. If you use a speed reload for a tactical reload then you need to do it static and behind cover because you’re not finished with your reload until you recover your partial magazine. Think about it, in competition you speed reload on the move from station to station. When the clock stops you go back and pick them up. In the fight when you go back to retrieve your dropped magazine because you realize you need those bullets, you might get sniped. If I was the bad guy, and I wanted you dead, I would be waiting for you. Good thing I’m a highly trained nice-guy. Put the timer to it, Combat load 3 seconds, Tactical Reload 3.5 seconds, now time your speed reload but remember the clock doesn’t stop until you recover your dropped mag, and remember to keep your eyes on your possible threat area while you recover it not at the ground in the high grass, and in the dark. I am not knocking speed reloads really, as a competitor (and a very good one as I have watched you shoot) your reactive mind is highly reflexive with the speed reload, just remember that you might need those bullets.
Review, Combat Reload 3 seconds, Tactical Reload 3.5 seconds, Speed reload and recover mag not sure, Reloaded and have all your bullets to fight with…priceless
Hoff

Liam · Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 86

What If I am dry? The Speed reload takes precedence. I am often aware of when I have one or none left in the mag and know when to make a reload. Of course this is under limited stress but if you are so much in tune to know when recovering an empty mag is a waste of time...

fm2 · Joined: 16 Jul 2007 Posts: 67

I see the speed reload drilled over and over to stand there immobile and reload. I think speed is important, but even if you can reload in exactly one second, how many times can you be shot in that same second? The problem with carrying this over to a gunfight is that if you're shooting at someone they're very probably shooting at you. If you slidelock while being fired upon, without cover, it's not time to reload. It's time to MOVE.

I am a proponant of what IDPA calls Reload with Retention. It provides for economy of motion, and there is speed in that.

I think it's a bad idea to try and manipulate two magazines with one hand especially when you're shaking with the adrenaline from having shot at someone or received fire.

I don't believe in dropping magazines. If you drop your mag in front of or even near your feet, your are much more likely to step/slip/trip/skid on it. You are creating extra debris where you want none. Consider the surface where your gunbattle will take place. Maybe on relatively level compactable earth (like an outdoor range), cement, asphalt, carpet, tile, Linoleum, among many possiblilities. Will anyone (spouse with impractical shoes, child, Grandfather) be following your lead that could be slowed down by your mag on the deck?

If you have ever had a double feed with an auto pistol then you know that it can be just about impossible to either cycle the weapon or withdraw the magazine. The follower on a depleted magazine can be used to hook the lip of the stuck magazine and rip it out of the well.

Defensive shooting is more than a speed game. Robust techniques to foil Mr. Murphy are important as well. Thats some of my thoughts.

Liam · Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 86

I think about the only time I would have presence of mind to perform such a complicated maneuver as a tac reload or reload with retention is after second sight. I would also seek cover or if none is avail I would hope to be moving whenever possible.

Hoff · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 526 Location: Warrior Nirvana

The key word here is "skill". The Tactical Reload must be a skill, not a complicated maneuver. If practiced properly and redundantly so that it is effectively stored in the reactive mind then it becomes a skill. When we choose to use it we perform flawlessly with ease. I don’t have to concern myself with the tactical reload when I want it, it just happens.
Hoff

Liam · Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 86

I am going to add the tac reload it to my bag of tricks. Let you know how it works out.

Hoff · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 526 Location: Warrior Nirvana

Wishing you Lots of Reps

wichaka · Joined: 27 Jul 2007 Posts: 80 Location: Washington State

The old way of a tac reload was eventually having two mags in one hand. Enter the double stack, and folks with small hands have problems with this method.

You may want to explore the tac reload, as dropping the mag in your hand and placing it on a pocket. Even when wearing jeans, this can be done rather fast. With the ejected mag in a pocket, come up with a fresh mag.

Hoff · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 526 Location: Warrior Nirvana

That technique would really help those with fat mags and liitle hands. Whether it be pocket or pouch dedicate it as the dump pouch for empty mags and you will still have them and they wont get mixed in with mags that actually have bullets in them. Main thing, have a system and a reason for the system.
Hoff

M.W. · Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 136 Location: inside the loop

Maybe these videos can help clarify a few ideas about the tactical-reload and why it is a useful CHL skill to learn and practice.

This whole premise is based on the idea that CHL peeps are even carrying a spare mag...some folks I know carry pistol only with a high cap,lol. I should find my vid of the baseplate coming off a Colt Commander magazine as the club shooter drew his pistol and the spring and all his bullets hit the floor...the "Oh,cr*p" look on his face was priceless as the timer kept running. In real life,your clock might run out permanently.

First of course is that what Brian has said previous, being a real world combat/tactical techniques expert, is absolutely correct and also has application in IDPA shooting. Not to get into too far into competiton stuff,suffice it to say that I am a big believer that everytime you handle your pistol(also other weapons too) that you are training your subconcious mind. How you practice and/or compete is going to be very similar to how you will fight with the addition of a massive adrenaline dump to your system making things even more difficult.

I prefer IDPA over other shooting sports for the simple reason that I am an active CHL carry person and almost always have a pistol on me.
(I will post the rulebook for the "how and whys" in the IDPA area so please maybe leave technical questions for that section,and I will do my best to answer them there).
For now all I want is to illustrate the tac-load techniques we use and make a few comments at the end,then I hope others will jump in and we again can all continue to grow and learn.

The Speed reload - as used in IPSC involves dropping a magazine (with live rounds or empty) to the ground before the gun is goes to slide-lock and replacing it with a fresh one.
Here is sponsored-pro World Champion Julie Goloski in action (Shooting babes turn me on,lol)...note the belt full of magazines she carries.
Click on the grey box at the far right-hand bottom to get a full screen...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=N5dCYZ6C0Y0 Btw,the Speed Reload is never allowed in IDPA and will incur procedural penalties for each infraction. Neither is standing still out in the open and shooting during a combat simulated scenario.

**For the record,I have small hands and my competition gun is a Glock 22...both fat double stack and long magazines. You will see that with proper instruction on technique and LOTS of dry-fire practice reps,that manipulation is no problem for me. Also,without practice no matter how big your hands are you can fumble a reload.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=b6sitVW5TXw **

Actually the tac-reload is not used alot in IDPA competitions for the simple reason that slide-lock,emergency,or Combat (all names for the same thing) generally will give the shooter a better time score. There are however those cases where a mandatory tac-load is called for or it is just a better fit to do it.
There are two basic types and each can have small variations.

The first is me doing what I prefer,the so-called "at the gun" technique - Do the mag change then moving works best for me (Sorry I am only a mid-level IDPA shooter but am working hard on making Master)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VQuYX25je_s

The other is called Reload with Retention (RWR) and is sometimes used to cover distance between firing points, my friend Travis uses this one most of the time - first vid,others are simply Slide-lock loads.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6NntGvYL-nw

Commentary:
Which is better? Depends on the shooter I suppose but from a laymans observation and what I would use in a life or death situation is the "at the gun" technique. With practice it is very fast and the gun is between mag changes for the shortest time. With RWR,once you drop that mag out and dump it to a pouch or pocket you are committed to a single-shot pistol. What if your spare mag dropped out along the way somewhere? Now you have to go back and find the old one and put it back...an eternity in a gunfight...and if that did happen to you,eternity might be your next stop.
With ATG, I access my mag first..get it close to the gun..if the situation is still conducive tactically(take a deep breath even) I can change the mag quickly and still fire strong hand with a full weapon while putting the old mag away.
To each his own,but that is how I practice.

Think ATG is not fast enough? Check this out, super smooth Dale Hunnicutt 4-gun Master Class shooter...all us old guys do ATG tac-loads..enjoy. Hoffism: smooth is fast,fast is smooth...

"Was that fast?" "Did you think it was fast?" "I thought it was fast..."
1- http://youtube.com/watch?v=K93FMErt_fM

2- same ATG covering distance between firing positions
http://youtube.com/watch?v=D4mRNYpELEQ

M.W. · Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 136 Location: inside the loop

Post corrected above

Semper_Fi

M.W.,
I appreciate the training that you, Dale and the Conroe IDPA crew have given over the past weeks.

Bottom line, Hoffner techniques and IDPA techniques are 90% compatible other than "tactical reload" and "muzzle control" practices.

In a real world gun fight, the Hoffner tactical reload will keep you in the fight and alive as compared to the IDPA tac reload which requires an extra time consuming action.

Also, Hoffner students are taught to keep the muzzle down "Sul position" because we work in teams and adhere to the laser rule, whereas, IDPA requires that the muzzle remain parallel to the deck and pointed down range. In a street fight there is no down range and I'm not inclined to laser everybody and everything around me whn I'm in motion...

IDPA sessions are indeed excellent training while Hoffner hand, knife, pistol and shotgun techniques are bad news for criminals...

Hoff · Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 526 Location: Warrior Nirvana

Good posts guys, nice links.
Hoff

M.W. · Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 136 Location: inside the loop

Semper I agree that some IDPA rules are not totally perfect.

Just so you know I have always thought that having to stow the mag before we could re-engage the targets was not so good from a purely tactical standpoint. One rationale is that you might be more accurate without a mag in your hand as the classic "cigar-hold" technique illustrates,I don't know for sure as to why we have to stow it but we do for match purposes.
Same thing for the muzzle downrange rule,again not perfect regarding the lazer rule out in public but given the wide range of shooters and skill levels that is what has been accepted for safety reasons at the gun ranges.

Basiclly,when in Rome do as the Romans do....

The crossover training ideas from experts like Brian is what I seek to balance the gaming/competition side of my shooting life.
I am grateful that we have him locally to work with us.