Gunfighter

Morris · Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 103 Location: Seattle Metro Area

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,143790,00.html?ESRC=topstories.RSS

Seems easy enough to just get the piston uppers versus buying all new rifles.

jazor

I would like to see the results from the test. From what we experance during the last class I think the M4 will do ok. But knowing how well the short stroke piston uppers work it will be a good test.

Morris

I agree I think it would be cheaper to get the new piston upper.

Semper_Fi

Troops and contractors learn quickly in the sandbox that even when cleaning and lubing weapons regularly and using MILITEC or other metal permeating dry lubes...M-4's, M-16's, AR-15's and AR-10's are much more likely to jam from sand and dust than are Springfield SOCOM's, Scouts, and M1A's which is why Springfield is more than 3 years back-logged on their semi-auto rifles. The price of Springfields continue to rise due to supply and demand.

You don't hear reports about M1 Garands and M1 Carbines jamming in the Pacific Islands during WWII.

DOD can do all the M-4 field testing they want.....watch what the tropps and contractors are buying with their own money and carrying into the field on their next hitch.

Note also that Congress and other 'oversight' politicians have directed DOD to issue our troops 40 grain FMJ's for 5.56 battle use. These morons-in-charge have no combat or ballisitics background and state publicly that hollow point and ballistic tip rounds create too much carnage which appeases those who protest for the U.S. to wage a "more humaritarian war".

markb · Joined: 30 Jul 2007 Posts: 15 Location: WA

If you are interested, the Sig 556 would be a great alternative to the AR's. and the m-14's. I used my sig 551 at the class in Washington, and did not even have a hiccup with it. The sigs are excellent in accuracy and are extremely reliable in any environments especially the dry sandy environment. The Sig 556 is basicly the same rifle with a different magazine and stock. (my understanding) Galil also makes an excellent rifle for thess environments, it is however a bit heavy, but since it would ride in the car most of the time that should not be a large problem. They also are extremely reliable and require very little maintenance. Down side is ability to acquire these rifles. It has been my experience that people who own these rifles do not generally part with them. There are the knockoffs out there, not quite sure how good they are. If you shop around abit you should be able to get a Galil. The Sig's are currently in production and are also back logged on orders. By the way, if your department is interested in trying out these rifles, let me know.

Morris · Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 103 Location: Seattle Metro Area

At the WSLEFIA conference this year, I had the opportunity to test fire both a SIG Arms factory 556 as well as an acquaintence's own 556 that had just been through Thunder Ranch.

I was impressed with the 556 rifle save a couple of small things that I hope SIG will modify. The charging handle on the right side would take some getting used to though (guess you would roll it to the side and charge AK style).

It was readily clear that the 55X series was designed to work in austere or dirty environments.

Semper_Fi

Every hitch, we see more U.S. and British troops and private contractors carrying Galil's, SIG's, H&K's, SSG's and FAL's on urban patrols and in remote areas. No doubt, 7.62 systems are quickly replacing 5.56 systems. Haven't seen so many Marine and Army squads carrying M-14's since the early 70's.

High quality, documented 7.62 semi-auto rifles are getting more difficult to locate let alone new from the factory, and contractors are paying steep premiums for high quality 7.62's.

5.56 systems have pretty much disqualified themselves past the 300 yard line which is spitting distance in remote areas.

Contractor teams working in Afghanistan, Iraq, Oman and Egypt typically carry their own 500+ yard hardware for defensive purposes and I believe the days of unarmed contractor teams are over....too many human losses in the field despite never ending promises from politicians.

Welcome to the wild, wild west - 2007.

markb · Joined: 30 Jul 2007 Posts: 15 Location: WA

Have found that you can simply reach you fingers over the top of the sig's to reach the charging handle, did not have to pull the rifle off of target to charge the round. Plus the Sigs have a lock open bolt, with a AR'15 type bolt release. Galil's you have to charge every time. Same technique for charging a round.

7.62's got to love the ballistics. M 14's great rifle. Like to get a FAL type system.

Basicly, want a rifle that goes bang everytime I squeeze the trigger.

garum · Joined: 11 Jul 2007 Posts: 22 Location: Hill Country, TX

Semper_Fi

If any piece of machinery gets enough debris stuck in it, or is ignored/misused long enough, it can jam.

Bottom line, the M-1 family of weapons has been reported over the decades by WWII troops as being highly reliable in the Pacific Island campaigns where sand and dust were pervasive while today, many Troops and Contractors stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan are switching to piston driven .308's such as Springfields and FALs for their reliablity as compared to M-16 and AR-10 designs.

I'll rephrase and say "You hear few reports about..." and where did you see those interviews garum? I'd like to read them.

For the past five years, Springfield M1A's have been my company's carry weapons in the remote locations of Iraq and Afghanistan. We train with them constantly in sandy/dusty conditions, maintain them properly, and have had no jams.

garum · Joined: 11 Jul 2007 Posts: 22 Location: Hill Country, TX

the interviews I saw were on various History Channel shows. I remember one about the Korean war I read on American Rifleman. Sorry, I don't keep records of all that I read and see! It doesn't mean the M1 was bad, just not infallible. I admit I am no expert, but two M1s I tried simply did not function without a bunch of grease in them!
I do prefer piston systems also, but there are more modern designs than the Garand system...and what about the HK G-3 system?