Gunfighter

Mel · Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Houston

I have a hard time focusing in on the front sight of my pistol.
Why don't many people that shoot at top gun use laser sights?
What are the down side of them?

Tac · Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Posts: 42 Location: Arizona

Mel,
Just my perspective here, as a LE firearms trainer and end user.

The biggest drawback to lasers is that they are battery operated and can't be counted on to be 100% reliable. They are also (for the most part) fragile and prone to damage when used hard and taken into "harm's way". Also, up till more recently, they were not bright enough for daylight use. As a result, they are usually considered ancillary and not a "main sighting system".

With that being said, my department authorizes the use of the Crimson Trace laser grips on duty guns. They have a long battery life, are zeroable to the individual weapon, and do not require a different holster. Additionally, they are activated by assuming a standard shooting grip on the weapon, and are not required to be "turned on" before use.

I have a set on my duty pistol. I actually purchased them with the intent of using them in conjunction with a sheild, as you can't always see the iron sights when the gun is depolyed around the sheild. They work in that capacity very well. I also found that they are fantastic when shooting from unconventional shooting positions. I consider them an addition to my iron sights, rather than a replacement for them. It gives me an additional means to know where my weapon is indexed, without having to actually "see" my iron sights.

I also installed a set on my back up gun, that I carry concealed when in uniform. If this weapon is ever needed, it will likely be during an event where I may have to shoot from flat on my back, one handed, at extreme close range, or "less than optimal" circumstance and the laser allows me more positive shot placement than simply "indexing the weapon".

I still train with, and use my iron sights. We are not allowed to use the laser sights during annual qualification, out of the fear that officers will become "dependant" on the laser.

If you have never used one, keep in mind, laser sights (like iron sights) will not correct poor trigger control, anticipation or improper grip, and allow you to hit, "just because that is where the dot is". (you would be suprised to hear some of the excuses I get from officers at the range.)

Hope this helps. (remember, your milage may vary)
-Tac

fm2 · Joined: 16 Jul 2007 Posts: 67

Tac makes some excellent points. I think a good argument could be made for laser sights on a J-frame.

Mel · Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Houston

Thank you tac, what dept. do you work for?
Also, I have the grip reduction done by Dale Huneicutt, do you know if the Crimson will fit?
I saw them on line for $199, does that sound about right?

Tac · Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Posts: 42 Location: Arizona

Mel,
I work for a medium/large municiple police department on the west border of Phoenix, Az. (Like Los Angeles, we have 16 cities in the metro Phoenix area. Mine is on the west border of Phoenix. Bout' 100,000 people.)

Since you didn't tell me what gun you are shooting, I can't tell you for sure if the CT laser grips will fit. I assume by the comment about the grip reduction, you are shooting a Glock of one form or another. If that's the case, I do not know if they will work. The Glock CT units secure to the backstrap and are locked in place with the frame cross pin at the top rear of the grip frame. If your grip is heavilly or radically modified in this area, then you might have issues with the CT unit.

Another alternative, if your pistol has light rails, is the Streamlight M-6 Light/Laser combo. It also has a zeroable laser unit, and has the added benifit of a white light system. They also make one in their new "TL" series that has an anodized aluminum body, rather than the plastic of the M-3/M-6 series. The down side is that they require a holster that allows the gun to be housed with the light/laser attached, and they require a seperate finger movement to activate the light/laser.

-Tac

M.W. · Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 136 Location: inside the loop

Way cool topic, Mel.

Another laser option for a Glock is the Lasermax Guide Rod Laser.
www.lasermax.com/products/
It is internal and replaces the guide rod so no worries on your grip reduction or having to get a special holster. They are not inexpensive however,running about $300.00

Lasers can be intimidating on BG's and I am for sure no expert on using them but my own feeling is that it slows me down to look for the red dot on the targets when engagng multiple threats. (Pistol mounted dot scopes are different,of course.)

Could be just me but having done IDPA scenarios for a good while, I have come to trust the green front/yellow rear Tru-Glo TFO(Tritium Fiber Optic) sights I use.
http://www.truglo.com/content/products/firearm/handgun_sights/handgun_sights.asp
They are quite effective and there is no problem picking them up off the draw,in low-light,even pitch blackness,bright daylight, and in target transitions.

No doubt making center hits is a good thing but having some speed in a real life gunfight is still important simply because the longer it lasts the more chance you will get injured or killed.

Behr · Joined: 16 Jun 2008 Posts: 28 Location: Htown

I have a green laser from viridian on my walther p22 just for fun. Green is WAY MORE visible than red due to the fact that our eyes see the green part of the spectrum more easily.

http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com/

At night you can actually see the beam for as far as your eye can see. Off the gun it makes an excellent astronomy tool. In the day in all but the brightest of places you can see the point of impact. Of course it is a dead givaway to your location if you dont cover it with your finger at the appropriate times.

When at the range I learned how unsteady I actually was while using the laser....a little embarrassing, but it made me change my grip to steady the laser. It helped me improve my accuracy even when switching to my compact colt 45 with the good old iron sights.

That said, I have read stories of border patrol agents having more success holding multiple persons at gunpoint when they are equipped with a laser. A laser on your chest lets you know exactly where the bullet is about to strike if you make the wrong move.

some advantages of a laser are listed here....

http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com/advantage/whyalaser/

Sgt_Z_Squad · Joined: 21 Jun 2008 Posts: 1

Behr · Joined: 16 Jun 2008 Posts: 28 Location: Htown

Sgt_Z_Squad you make some valid points, but let me say after a year of carrying my viridian laser it has never failed to work, and it sits in the heat of my truck every day.

you are absolutely correct in pointing out there is no hiding when the laser is turned on.

And yes, it does light up a room like a small flashlight.

I have never experienced the splash effect enough to not see the dot.

My battery last hours at a time...not sure how many, but when it gets low it starts flashing and gives plenty of warning before it actually looses power.

from what ive read green lasers burn hotter and need more room and battery to work properly, maybe that is a problem when trying to fit it in a crimson trace grip.

So as far as fragility goes, so far mine has toughed it out with no problems to date. Other brands may have problems, I dont know.

I have decided for myself there are actually very few times I would use any laser in a real gun fight. I think a hostage situation is one of the few times I would...not to help me with accuracy, but to intimidate the hostage taker.....do you think this is good policy?

The other time I think I would use it is if I had the time to turn it on for a medium to long range shot to increase my accuracy.

Especially with dry fire practice, it is a good training tool to help you see how steady your grip is and direction you are pulling as you go through the motions of shooting.

I believe green and red both have their time for use, but a laser is by no means a must have tool.

Mel · Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Houston

I now have the Crimson Trace laser sights on my Glock 19.
At what distance would recommend sighting them in?

garum · Joined: 11 Jul 2007 Posts: 22 Location: Hill Country, TX

I bought one of these for home defense use, hoping that it will help ID the target more easily (I have kids) and to intimidate a bad guy (I heard that in police trials they increased the chance of surrender without having to shoot).

Overall I like it, but at the range on a sunny day I CANNOT see the laser at any distance. It's not just hard to see, I do not see it at 15 or 25 yds.
The brand name on the light is Insight Technology, is this the same as Streamlight or did I buy a cheapo product?